GLEN WELDON, HOST:

The new Disney+ film "Pinocchio" is a mostly live-action remake of the 1940 Disney animated classic about a wooden boy who longs to become real but must first undergo a series of trials and temptations in order to do so.

AISHA HARRIS, HOST:

You know the story. But director and co-writer Robert Zemeckis has corralled stars like Tom Hanks, Cynthia Erivo, Joseph Gordon-Levitt and Keegan-Michael Key to give it new life. I'm Aisha Harris.

WELDON: And I'm Glen Weldon. And today we're talking about "Pinocchio" on POP CULTURE HAPPY HOUR from NPR. Joining us today is Margaret Willison, newly of Not Sorry Productions. Welcome back, Margaret.

MARGARET WILLISON: Hi, Glen. Thank you for having me.

WELDON: Of course. And also with us is Christina Tucker, co-host of the podcast, "Wait, Is This A Date?" Welcome back, Christina.

CHRISTINA TUCKER: Hey, hey, hey.

WELDON: Hey, hey, and as you say, hey.

(LAUGHTER)

WELDON: All right. As we mentioned, you know the story of "Pinocchio." So here, Tom Hanks is a lonely woodcarver whose name is Geppetto, who makes a wooden boy puppet out of pine. Cynthia Erivo is the blue fairy who grants Geppetto's wish for a son, sort of, by imbuing the wooden boy with life. Now, it's not full life because if Pinocchio, voiced by Ben Ainsworth, wishes to become a real, live boy, he must prove himself brave and selfless and honest. And until that happens, a cricket named Jiminy gets sort of dragooned into acting as his temporary conscience. He's voiced by Joseph Gordon-Levitt doing a whole Southern thing.

The film hits all the familiar beats of the 1940 original. The shifty fox, Honest John, is voiced by Keegan-Michael Key. The evil puppet show proprietor, Stromboli, is played by Giuseppe Battiston. And Luke Evans is the also evil proprietor of an island of temptation. It does add a new character, a puppeteer named Fabiana, played by Kyanne Lamaya. In the grand tradition of these Disney live-action remakes, Fabiana gets a brand-new song to sing, making it eligible for the best original song Oscar.

The film was directed by Robert Zemeckis, who co-wrote it with Chris Weitz. So to be clear, this isn't the animated Guillermo del Toro "Pinocchio," which is coming to Netflix in a few months. That promises to be a lot darker and a lot freakier than this "Pinocchio." This "Pinocchio" we're talking about is the Disney mostly live-action remake available today on Disney+. Christina, what'd you think?

TUCKER: Well, this is a movie that was made. I can say that kind of proudly and bravely. I believe Aisha used the word corralled to describe the cast. And it does feel as though everyone here maybe owed Robert Zemeckis some sort of favor, cannot say no to him. I don't really remember much of what happened in this movie, one, because it is basically, beat for beat, the same as the classic original film from the '40s and also because it's incredibly boring.

WILLISON: (Laughter).

WELDON: OK.

TUCKER: I don't know...

WELDON: OK.

TUCKER: ...Why we have decided to force Tom Hanks into just, like, muttering to CGI creatures by himself for many, many hours, but that's what we've decided we're doing with national treasure Tom Hanks. I don't know why Lorraine Bracco is a seagull. Why...

WILLISON: Yeah.

TUCKER: ...Did that happen? I...

WILLISON: Academy Award nominee Lorraine Bracco as a new character, Sophia the seagull.

TUCKER: Just a seagull. Why did that have to happen? Is it possible that I don't particularly care for the story of "Pinocchio" as we have known it in the classic Disney story? Sure. Maybe that's part of the problem here, too. But, boy, I just can't find a reason that this had to be made at this time. Whomst (ph) was clamoring, I ask?

WELDON: Whomst was clamoring, indeed. Margaret, were youmst (ph) clamoring?

WILLISON: No. I came away from this with so many questions. Whomst clamoring was certainly one of them. Others include, like, why do people give Robert Zemeckis money?

TUCKER: Yeah.

WILLISON: Right? How much money does Disney have? By what metric is it more than morally any company should have? How, knowing that, do I still feel like Tom Hanks - like, his asking price isn't high enough? No one in this has a high enough asking price. Why is Stromboli interested in this total void of personality puppet...

TUCKER: (Laughter).

WILLISON: ...Pinocchio, when there's a talking fox with major star quality...

WELDON: (Laughter).

WILLISON: ...And a really cute girl who can go en pointe in, like, a one leg is shorter than the other leg brace? Like, that's...

WELDON: Yep.

WILLISON: ...Spectacle. That's showmanship.

WELDON: Yep.

WILLISON: But also by the end of the movie, most pressingly, I need to know so much more about the fluid dynamics in this world...

WELDON: OK.

WILLISON: ...Because there's a lengthy sequence. For one thing, Geppetto, when he's out searching for Pinocchio, is just carrying a weirdly flirtatious and sexualized goldfish in a goldfish...

WELDON: Sure.

WILLISON: ...Bowl under his arm. And that goldfish bowl goes out to sea, gets swallowed by a whale that's inexplicably been turned into a sea monster, gets ejected from the whale, the ship breaks in two, and then the goldfish in the bowl just washes up on the beach. And the water is just there.

HARRIS: Well, that's what happens in the 1940 version, too (laughter).

WELDON: This is exactly my point. Yes. It's a cartoon, Margaret.

TUCKER: True.

WILLISON: But it's not a cartoon, Glen. It's live-action.

WELDON: OK.

WILLISON: And once you've made it live-action, suddenly, if you're going to put root beers that look like beer and you're just going to have them turning upside down and going all sorts of directions but just, like, inexplicably - the fluid in them, again.

HARRIS: Margaret, it's a piece of pine that talks.

(LAUGHTER)

WILLISON: Look. Look. I didn't do this to myself. I didn't do this. This movie did this to me because I had to pay attention to something, and it certainly wasn't going to be the plot, characterizations or dialogue. It was going to be fluid dynamics.

WELDON: If the physics of this universe are what's capturing your attention, I think it's fair to say that the spell was not cast. Now, Aisha, you are our Disney lifer, and you're very familiar with the original 1940 film. How did this land on you?

HARRIS: Look. Yes, I am a Disney lifer. I'm a Disney adult, for all the bad and good that that connotates. So I feel like I'm just having deja vu here because Disney has been doing this, quote, unquote, "live-action remake" thing for almost 30 years at this point. I believe the first incarnation of this was "The Jungle Book," the 1994 live-action remake of the animated version. And so I feel like at this point, I don't know if I have anything new to say that I haven't already said.

Yes, it is, in many ways, beat for beat, and the things that it adds are not actually additive. It doesn't improve on the original version in any way. And it also doesn't, like, even come close to being as good as the original. "Pinocchio" is, like, not - I wouldn't even put it in my Top 5 of Disney animated films. But I like it, and I think that the things that make it so memorable is the songs, "When You Wish Upon A Star," of course, and even, like, "Give A Little Whistle" and also the animation. Monstro in the 1940 version - the way that it is animated, there are lines on his body that move. And when he sneezes, like, even to present-day eyes, it looks beautiful and fantastic, and it feels overwhelming. And here, Maestro (ph) the whale is just, like, another CGI monster that we've seen over and over again.

I find myself wishing I had something more to say about this, but I also have to blame Disney because that is what they want to do. They are recycling. They are tapping into nostalgia. And so, like, in order for me to say anything new, they'd have to drastically change this movie. And other than adding Fabiana and, like, totally changing the ending in a way and, like, what - our expectations of how the movie ends - or on how the original story ends, there is nothing new here. So yeah, I was very much, like, going through the motions with this movie, and I don't see any real value to this.

WELDON: Well, the Disney shareholders do. I mean, and maybe that's what matters here. This is going to sound like I'm defending this movie, and I'm not. But like, look. This is known quantity, the movie. This is - like, Disney has this back catalog, and they're worried that these films may not be as timeless as maybe they thought they were at one point. So they've got this initiative to take their existing IP. And they're not innovating. They're not unpacking. They're not upending. They're certainly not deconstructing - though that could be fun - what they're doing is just kind of powdering its nose, right? So they're updating the sensibility. They're increasing the pace and adding more set pieces for shorter attention spans. They're hiring actors people know. And they're throwing in an original song for Oscar contention. There are a couple of jokes in here about celebrity and about talent agents. It never...

HARRIS: About Chris Pine.

WELDON: About Chris Pine...

TUCKER: The Chris Pine.

WELDON: Sure.

WILLISON: Yeah...

TUCKER: The Chris Pine.

WILLISON: Thirty American...

WELDON: Sure.

WILLISON: ...Minutes into this movie, someone does attempt to make a joke, and it is Keegan-Michael Key. And even he cannot make it land.

WELDON: And thank God they never get to quite the kind of, like, Little Deadpool level because that was where I was worried we were spinning off into because that would be - as - Aisha, as you mentioned, that would be a bold choice, and this film is not interested in bold choices. There are these moments of filigree around the edges, right? It gets a little baroque in its approach sometimes, but I cannot recall a moment, a visual, a piece of dialogue that sought to distinguish itself from the original because that's not the assignment. I'm going to say here that none of us in this room, even you, Aisha, Disney lifer, Disney adult - you're not the target audience for this. I think the target audience for this is people who want to offer their kids that magical thing, which is, here is this thing that you already know...

HARRIS: Yeah.

WELDON: ...But we can pretend it's new. That is what this exists to be. And in that sense, it checks that box.

HARRIS: Yeah. At this point, we're on a conveyor belt - right? - and, like, they're just coming out faster and faster, and...

TUCKER: Yes.

HARRIS: ...At some point, they're going to run out of original Disney animated films to remake. I don't know when that will happen, but, like, I'm sure a "Frozen" live-action version is coming inevitably, at some point.

WILLISON: All too soon.

TUCKER: The chill that just crept down my spine.

WILLISON: (Laughter).

TUCKER: My God.

HARRIS: Yeah. I don't know. I wonder if the reason why they're raising prices at Disneyland is because they need to pay Robert Zemeckis all the money that (laughter)...

WELDON: Yeah.

HARRIS: ...They took for this movie.

WILLISON: Yeah.

WELDON: Or let's talk performances. Like, Tom Hanks, America's dad - he here, is not doing what a lot of the other actors in this film are doing, which is the (imitating Italian accent) it's-a me, Mario. I'm here in this Italian village.

HARRIS: Yeah.

WELDON: What did you think of him, at least? What's he giving? What's he bringing?

WILLISON: He's giving bad wig.

WELDON: Yeah, he's giving bad wig.

TUCKER: Yeah. To borrow a phrase from the "Blank Check" podcast, it's Putters and Murmurs is the award, I believe.

HARRIS: (Laughter).

TUCKER: And he - the first, like, 20 minutes of this movie is quite literally just Tom Hanks puttering and murmuring about talking to, as Margaret mentioned, a weirdly sexualized fish...

WILLISON: Yeah.

TUCKER: ...A cat that is also CGI. There's a lot of clocks. I don't know - as Margaret pointed out in our text, when - you think she went long on fluid dynamics here. Whew, aren't you lucky, listeners.

(LAUGHTER)

TUCKER: Just, like, so many clocks. Like, sir, how are you sleeping?

WILLISON: Yeah.

TUCKER: And he's just - I mean, he's Tom Hanks. I'm never going to be mad to see him in a space. But I was also like, buddy, are you - like, I kind of want to do a wellness check. I'm like, are you good, dog? Like...

WELDON: Yeah.

TUCKER: Why are we doing this?

WELDON: Let's talk Cynthia Erivo. Now, look; she came in. She's playing the Blue Fairy a little bit more with it, a little bit more hip, a little bit more knowing. There's a kind of a joke, a pseudo joke, in here where it's suggested that Pinocchio's personality is kind of an AI in a weird way that - I kind of enjoyed that.

TUCKER: Yeah.

HARRIS: Yeah. At first, yeah.

WELDON: But as much as I was sitting there with my arms crossed going, this is going nowhere, when she starts singing "When You Wish Upon A Star," the power of that song and the power of that voice, it kind of snuck in, right?

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "PINOCCHIO")

CYNTHIA ERIVO: (As Blue Fairy, singing) When you wish upon a star, your dreams come true.

TUCKER: I mean, good singer sings a song. I love to hear that. I am a musical gay. If you put a musical actress in something and give her a song to sing, I'm sitting up a little bit. I did have that moment. And for that, I guess, thank you, Bobby Z (laughter).

HARRIS: She also did look really stunning. Like, the lighting and the animation of her dress are just - were really - I liked that. I'll give it that.

TUCKER: It was very fairy-like. I liked that.

WELDON: Let's talk something that defies physics and the laws of God and man, which is JGL's accent as Jiminy.

WILLISON: Oh, boy.

TUCKER: (Laughter).

WELDON: He is doing this southern thing. It seems really out of place. But then, as you mentioned - then Lorraine Bracco seagull shows up. And it's like, OK.

(LAUGHTER)

WELDON: This is not an Italian village. This is - (laughter) this is a studio backlot somewhere.

HARRIS: Yeah, it was kind of all over the place. I think, for me, if there was one performance that sort of snapped me alive for a little bit, it was Keegan-Michael Key. But the problem is, like, they also saddled him with so many, like, modern-day references.

WILLISON: Yeah.

HARRIS: Like, we've already mentioned the Chris Pine joke, but, like, also referring to influencers and stuff. It was teetering on Shrek-ism. And I was like, ooh.

WELDON: Oh, yeah.

(LAUGHTER)

HARRIS: Let's - it didn't quite go there, but it was inching up to there. But, like, when he showed up, I was like, oh, like, I'm finally sort of interested in this...

WILLISON: Yeah.

TUCKER: (Laughter).

HARRIS: ...Like, because he was giving, like, full-on what that character needs. Like, I'm a con man. I'm a hustler, very obviously. But this little, wooden puppet would not know better. So like - yeah.

TUCKER: Yeah. I was like, this guy seems like he's having a fun time. Like, let's go hang out with this fox. Let's kick it. Like, what is he up to? What's his day to day? I'm interested.

WILLISON: Off-screen, there is a puppet theater uprising against Stromboli. And we just learn about it in an aside. And I'm like, couldn't we have been watching that?

WELDON: Yeah.

HARRIS: (Laughter) I totally forgot about the union (laughter) or, like, whatever that was that was going on.

TUCKER: The pro-union puppets. Wild that you could forget that. It was so memorable and mattered so much to the film.

WELDON: Yeah. What surprised me watching this, though, is I had thought, the thing we think about with Pinocchio - oh, his nose grows when he lies. That just happens the once here.

WILLISON: Fifty-five minutes in.

WELDON: Yeah, right? It's like his superpower. It's like his thing. It's like his optic blast.

TUCKER: Yeah.

WELDON: And he doesn't get to bust it out at all.

HARRIS: Yeah. I don't know. And also just, like, having watched this, it made me finally think about the whole premise of the story, which doesn't really make sense because it's like, in order to become a real boy, he has to be honest and good. But, like, all the people around him are not honest and good. So like, why is that the...

WILLISON: Yeah.

HARRIS: (Laughter) Why is that the caveat?

WILLISON: Yeah, why are we putting that on pine, you know, when we wouldn't put it on flesh?

WELDON: Yeah. Well, you heard what we think. We want to know what you think. That's what matters. Find us at facebook.com/pchh and on Twitter at @pchh. Coming up next, what is making us happy this week?

Now it is time for our favorite segment of this week and every week, what is making us happy this week? Christina, what is making you happy this week?

TUCKER: Team, I finally figured out how to get into audiobooks, something that was really, for a person who listens to probably, like, 40 hours of podcasts a week, shocking that I could not crack the audiobook code. I just couldn't quite get there. But the one that I was really having a great time with, N. K. Jemisin's "The Fifth Season" audiobook - incredible, incredible stuff. I had just a blast reliving in that, like, universe. It was really good to revisit. And it's just a lovely little thing to kind of have humming in the background as you're - I don't know - doing whatever elderly lady tasks I'm doing in my home.

WELDON: All right. Thank you so much. Margaret Willison, what is making you happy this week?

WILLISON: Well, I have a new job, and that's what's making me happy this week.

WELDON: Cool.

WILLISON: I am joining Not Sorry Productions. I will be doing some social media and communications work for them, but also - and most pertinent, POP CULTURE HAPPY HOUR listeners - I will be running literary-themed pilgrimages, including one dedicated to Jane Austen's "Pride And Prejudice" that is happening this April, April 24 through 28. I'm excited to keep doing things like that.

WELDON: Thank you very much, Margaret. Aisha, what is making you happy this week?

HARRIS: "Bad Sisters" on Apple TV. It is a new series that is based off of a Flemish series called "Clan." This time, it's set in Ireland. So basically, she plays one of five tightknit sisters. And one of the sisters is married to the worst guy who ever lived, who is played by Claes Bang. And they - basically, throughout the series, they are plotting how to kill him because he's just ruined their lives in so many ways. But they run into quite a few setbacks. And it's sort of a dark comedy/Hitchcockian macabre...

WELDON: Random.

HARRIS: ...Vibe that I really, really love. So yeah. So that's "Bad Sisters" on Apple TV.

WELDON: Thank you very much, Aisha. I had - that has been recommended to me several times. I'm going to get around to it now based on that ringing recommendation.

HARRIS: It's very fun.

WELDON: I was going to watch it this weekend, but I chose to watch something else because it was a gray Saturday afternoon, and there's this movie that's been kind of bubbling in the back of my life for a long time. And I just - eh, it's not for me. I'm not going to try it. But I decided I'd try it, and I clicked on it, and it opened up with April 1805. Napoleon is master of Europe. Only the British fleet stands before him. Oceans are now battlefields. And I was like, oh, I'm in. This is "Master And Commander: The Far Side Of The World." This is a 2003 film drawn from three novels by Patrick O'Brian. It's a period piece, as you might expect, directed by Peter Weir, set aboard the HMS Surprise during the Napoleonic Wars. Russell Crowe, which isn't great, plays Captain Jack Aubrey. Paul Bettany plays the ship's surgeon. The whole thing is they have to hunt down this French frigate, the Acheron, before it can round Cape Horn and attack the British whaling interests in and around the Galapagos Islands. To be clear, this is a dad movie. This is the ultimate dad...

HARRIS: (Laughter).

WELDON: ...Movie. Every time you...

HARRIS: I was going to say, this is ultimately not for me (laughter).

WELDON: This is - every time you click to watch this movie, Aisha, you're going to get shipped a pair of Target khakis and a polo shirt...

HARRIS: (Laughter).

WELDON: ...And a Home Depot gift card. That's just what happens.

TUCKER: (Laughter).

WELDON: I am not watching it from that perspective, so there is a bit of anthropology going on. But I really enjoyed it. It is so - the word I landed on is sincere. And at one point, Russell Crowe wonders if the enemy is coming so hard after him because, did I kill someone he loves? His son, God forbid. It's like, his son, God forbid? Come on. That - but that's the vibe. There is no archness. There's no cynicism. There is no extra layer. And after watching what I have to say is a pretty cynical excuse in brand renewal, I got this movie in a way I didn't expect to because it's mostly practical effects. The fluid dynamics, Margaret, you would have no problem with because...

WILLISON: (Laughter).

WELDON: ...The battles at sea are just so rough and grimy and real. And I didn't always understand this movie, but I did enjoy the hell out of it. That is "Master And Commander: The Far Side Of The World," now streaming in a bunch of places all over the damn place. And that is what's making me happy this week. And if you want links for what we recommended, plus some more recommendations, sign up for our newsletter at npr.org/popculturenewsletter. That brings us to the end of our show. Christina, Margaret and Aisha, thanks to all of you for being here.

HARRIS: Thank you.

TUCKER: Thank you, thank you.

WILLISON: Thanks for having us.

WELDON: And of course, thank you for listening to POP CULTURE HAPPY HOUR from NPR. This episode was produced by Hafsa Fathima and edited by Jessica Reedy. And HELLO COME IN provides our theme music. I'm Glen Weldon, and we'll see you all next week.

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